tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post4387850113543596536..comments2024-03-28T07:08:58.221-04:00Comments on Todd Seavey: Book Selection of the Month: "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Golderg (plus war and globalism)Todd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-10393903564531432402007-12-28T17:01:00.000-05:002007-12-28T17:01:00.000-05:00Todd Heap –Yeah, I agree with you. Goldberg seems ...Todd Heap –<br><br>Yeah, I agree with you. Goldberg seems to be playing their own game in many ways by using the term “Fascism,” which they have no problem tossing around, um, liberally, until it’s tossed at them.<br><br>But that’s what concerns me a bit about it. Again, having not read the book, I still think the idea of using that term is kind of sinking to their level. Because terms like “fascist,” “nazi,” “socialist,” “communist,” etc each have a distinct definition, and it’s very easy to show how a modern liberal in many ways doesn’t fit into any single one exactly (and how plenty of things about the right might fit into some of them as well).<br><br>A liberal friend of mine once called my positions (fairly libertarian-leaning) “fascist.” I responded that if either of our positions could be described in such a way, it’d be her faith in big government, not my skepticism of same. But I made it clear that I was not in any way trying to suggest that she was actually a nazi or a fascist.<br><br>And I have nothing against Goldberg — I’ve read his articles before and never thought he was out of his mind or offensive. But he does write for National Review, and has often supported Bush and the Iraq War, two positions which, in my view, are hard to reconcile with the argument that those who support big government are fascists (unless he considers himself one).<br><br>But I won’t draw too many conclusions till I read the thing.Dylannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-12009202077343633032007-12-28T14:59:00.000-05:002007-12-28T14:59:00.000-05:00When did you stop beating your wife, MonkeyBoy?When did you stop beating your wife, MonkeyBoy?Ray Lewisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-50006622212982511412007-12-28T14:23:00.000-05:002007-12-28T14:23:00.000-05:00Thanks for a thoughtful review. The debate forums...Thanks for a thoughtful review. The debate forums at Amazon reveal the enormous double-standard raging in the Leftist brain. They call conservatives fascist and Nazi if they detect even the slightest similarity. However, when Jonah turns the tables, suddenly it’s completely unfair to use these terms since Leftists don’t actually want to build concentration camps and exterminate Jews. These words, once thrown out so casually, suddenly acquire a very narrow definition.<br><br>I don’t know how people live with such cogniive dissonance.Todd Heapnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-7867682298940023032007-12-28T11:55:00.000-05:002007-12-28T11:55:00.000-05:00Very helpful review. I will definitely be buying ...Very helpful review. I will definitely be buying the book (I am a little mystified at the claim of some commenters that they have read the book when it is not on sale yet). I also thought your “Goldstein” post was exceptional. Your description of the left’s considering their hate to be “the holy and justified kind” is pretty evident in the comments you refer to.<br><br>MB, may I suggest that you review the <a href="http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/wuz/2006/07/greenpuppet.html" rel="nofollow">primer</a> on the net’s premiere sock-puppeter, a dedicated lefty, Glenn Greenwald.inmypajamasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-2316021978206143042007-12-28T10:48:00.000-05:002007-12-28T10:48:00.000-05:00Thanks for the review. I look forward to the book...Thanks for the review. I look forward to the book.Patrick Carrollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-36424418914967448832007-12-28T01:59:00.000-05:002007-12-28T01:59:00.000-05:00Todd, you own the blog.Rather than say you think t...Todd, you own the blog.<br><br>Rather than say you think there are more left-wing sock puppets here than Jonah Goldberg sock puppets, you can just look at the IP addresses of the posts and out anybody that posts from the same IP address.<br><br>Since you didn’t do this I guess you are covering up for Goldberg acting as a sock puppet. He is probably too stupid to realize that his IP address stays the same no matter which username he uses.MonkeyBoynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-4688700571753001392007-12-27T22:45:00.000-05:002007-12-27T22:45:00.000-05:00so Bush sets up secret prisons, advocates torture,...so Bush sets up secret prisons, advocates torture, invades foreign countries, hires a paramilitary force that is above the law, etc, and yet it is taxes on the rich that are fascist? Rightcokanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-75419439125891024462007-12-27T21:33:00.000-05:002007-12-27T21:33:00.000-05:00Sean Hastings | 7:37 pm on the 26th of December, 2...Sean Hastings | 7:37 pm on the 26th of December, 2007 <br><br>“But this says nothing about whether it is a modern Democrat or Republican in the US whom is closer to being a Nazi. They are both far too close for my liking, and are about equidistant from Hitler’s politics, each embracing different aspects of Fascism. ”<br><br>Fair enough, but if it takes the air out of the progressive’s sails (and/or windbag) of accusing American conservatives of being closet Nazis… then its worth a go. :)<br><br>Basically, pot to kettle to the progressives. <br><br>Anyway, its probably not that bad around the country but I live in the San Fran bay area. and there are plenty of lunatics convinced that US conservative = fascist. while at the same time they are Hugo Chavez / Castro apologists. et cetera. <br><br>Cheersthomassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-65588881040231106962007-12-27T21:26:00.000-05:002007-12-27T21:26:00.000-05:00I’m not against the book, but the reviews are maki...I’m not against the book, but the reviews are making it sound like he is arguing fascism actually is ‘left wing’… which is problematic… a better / more accurate argument would be it was a hybrid (of extreme right and left) and furthermore American Conservatism is not right wing by Euro standards… its basically ‘liberal’ (or has more overlap with it than Euro conservatism)… The Euro right wing was anti American democracy, anti free market, anti individual. like the left. but still, it was different and this should be explained… On the other hand, I think the argument that it (the old right) has mostly since been absorbed by the left (anti globos, identity politics, naturalism, non Christian spiritualists) is perfectly fair….<br><br>Anyway, I look forward to reading it and I hope he does not make that argument (that Nazism, or Italian Fascism, was actually pure left wingery). It simplifies things so much as to be inaccurate.thomassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-66269697870625168492007-12-27T21:23:00.000-05:002007-12-27T21:23:00.000-05:00It seem to me that this is actually very simple.Th...It seem to me that this is actually very simple.<br><br>The essential core of fascism is worship of the state over the individual. It’s really that simple. All of the millions of murders committed in the name of this ideology come from the belief that the state is everything and the people nothing.<br><br>Now, ask yourself: in America today, who tends to support large giovernment? Who looks to a large and powerful state to solve the problems of society? Liberals or Conservatives? <br><br>If you replace the word “Fascism” with “Totalitarianism” the picture is much clearer, as Fascism is a word with historical tethers. The Nazi’s were Big State, anti-individualits. So were the Soviets and the Cinese Commiunists, and the Cubans, and the North Koreans, the Sandinistas, and on and on. Some of the common hallmarks of totalitarian states are that they are anti-capitalist, anti-gun ownership, anti-religous and anti-free speech. American liberals are all of the first three, and as the reviews at SN clearly show, only for the latter when it is their speech they are defending. Anything contrary to to the Party Line must be villified, and if you can’t do that with fact and logic then they will do it with things like claims of “sock puppetry” and elevated analyses like “Momma’s Boy” and “Blubber Butt.”<br><br>Scratch most liberals and you will find a totalitarian, a person who feel they could cure all of society’s ills if they could just get their hand on the whip.Bill Whittlehttp://www.ejectejecteject.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-14817124781407841042007-12-27T19:10:00.000-05:002007-12-27T19:10:00.000-05:00Thanks for the review. I had a chance to talk to ...Thanks for the review. I had a chance to talk to Goldberg about the book back in November of 2006 and it sounded quite interesting, but then some of the promotional materials came out and made it sound like a Coulter-esque rabid dog piece (Coulter used to be a good writer and commentator, but somewhere along the line she decided to live down to the caricature of herself the Left created). This review (among others) restores my hope for the book. I’ll definitely be using the gift cards I got for Christmas to get it.<br><br>Oh, and to all, if you haven’t checked out that political compass site, don’t bother; the questions it asks to gauge where you are reduces complex issues to a series of black and white questions when the answers I’d like to give are shades of gray.Scottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-29093666547018660032007-12-27T13:46:00.000-05:002007-12-27T13:46:00.000-05:00Good review, Todd.I don’t go to many blogs very of...Good review, Todd.<br><br>I don’t go to many blogs very often, except this one and Hit And Run. I remember why now. The level of arrogant nastiness that commenters feel the need to express simply because they disagree is just tiresome. And it’s usually a sign that one has no real argument when he/she engages in such name-calling and whatnot.<br><br>I haven’t read the book, I’m not sure how much I agree with Goldberg’s idea that liberalism necessarily is “fascist”, but I think it’s a no-brainer that a good deal of the left is enamored with the use of force wielded by a strong central authority. Alas, so is a good deal of the right at this point. <br><br>But keep up the civilized debate and ignore the ad hominem assholes.Dylannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-18252775265274566772007-12-26T19:37:00.000-05:002007-12-26T19:37:00.000-05:00This is a silly argument.It is trivially true that...This is a silly argument.<br><br>It is trivially true that the Nazis (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei OR National Socialist German Workers Party) were an economically leftist group by modern U.S. standards. Just think about it. If you started a party in the US today called the “National Socialist American Workers Party” you can bet they would support Ralph Nader for president.<br><br>But this says nothing about whether it is a modern Democrat or Republican in the US whom is closer to being a Nazi. They are both far too close for my liking, and are about equidistant from Hitler’s politics, each embracing different aspects of Fascism. <br><br>This doesn’t mean that Hitler was some kind of moderate, falling half way between them on a single left/right spectrum. The political universe is more complicated than a single left or right axis. Each different independent idea/issue creates its own axis. So a true graph of the political positions of various people or parties would be to complicated to view and intuitively grasp. However, even adding just one more axis, it is easy to see how Hitler’s politics are about equidistant from those of modern U.S. Democrats and Republicans.<br><br>Here is something I wrote recently, making use of the two dimensional “political compass,” that explains why I don’t vote for any of the neo-fascist candidates offered up by either party for my consideration:<br><br><a href="http://www.veraverba.com/blog/2007/12/12/why-i-dont-vote/" rel="nofollow">http://www.veraverba.com/blog/2007/12/12/why-i-dont-vote/</a><br><br>(Notice where Hitler falls on the graph in reference to the current bunch of candidates)Sean Hastingshttp://www.godwantsyoudead.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-76233244688324447942007-12-26T16:21:00.000-05:002007-12-26T16:21:00.000-05:00I love the guy who says “my god learn how to write...I love the guy who says “my god learn how to write” immediately after splitting an infinitive. Just. Perfect.Linonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-25677632928228296662007-12-26T15:48:00.000-05:002007-12-26T15:48:00.000-05:00Well, the pro Goldbergians keep using the same “ar...Well, the pro Goldbergians keep using the same “argument”, which is to say anyone who disagrees with them is a lefty and therefore automatically wrong. That’s Jonah’s basic premise to the book, which be then builds on by calling them fascists.<br><br>I am the person who gave Sadly, No! a copy of Jonah’s book. I’ve read it, too. You’re full of it to call it anything but a textbook case of projection. There’s no actual scholarship in the book. There’s unfounded assertions which he pretends to back up by referencing a source which contradicts his assertion. But hey, I mentioned Jonah’s name, so therefore this is an ad hominem attack based on projection, right? Gotta find some way to dismiss the criticism and salve that ego, eh little man?<br><br>Oh, n fyi, just because the founder of S,N! moved to Germany doesn’t make it a german blog, bright guy. The rest of the people who post are Americans living in the US. I do, however, have to ask if you realize that, since you’re neither funny nor informative, that assertion on your part amounts to slander. I suggest you apologize and hope not to be sued, tough guy.bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-77381219858435929862007-12-26T04:06:00.000-05:002007-12-26T04:06:00.000-05:00It’s interesting that after only three positive Re...It’s interesting that after only three positive Responses about Goldberg and numerous very negative ones that sound quite similar to each other, one commenter above accuses the _pro_-Goldberg posters of being sock puppets. <br><br>People often fear in others the darkness they see in themselves, I suspect. Now everybody calm down.Todd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-41496950306467363862007-12-26T01:51:00.000-05:002007-12-26T01:51:00.000-05:00The liberals have nothing but personal attacks. I...The liberals have nothing but personal attacks. It must hurt to have your political principles exposed for their similarities to the most infamous fascist regimes in memory. I’d be pissed, too, if someone did that to everything that I hold dear. <br><br>It’s a lotta fun to watch, though :-)<br><br>Thanks for the review.<br><br>the DoctorDr. Cletus Krausnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-48215100303407115342007-12-25T19:38:00.000-05:002007-12-25T19:38:00.000-05:00Awesome review. It is striking how you ignore the ...Awesome review. It is striking how you ignore the imperialism of Nazi Germany, USSR, Mussolini… Imperialism is a common thread of all these 20th century fascists, and the current Left in America is decidedly anti-imperialist. <br><br>Now, what movement does want us to invade foreign countries?<br><br>“So how does all this, or the humble attempt at a history lesson of my last column, justify tearing down the Baghdad regime? Well, I’ve long been an admirer of, if not a full-fledged subscriber to, what I call the “Ledeen Doctrine.” I’m not sure my friend Michael Ledeen will thank me for ascribing authorship to him and he may have only been semi-serious when he crafted it, but here is the bedrock tenet of the Ledeen Doctrine in more or less his own words: “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.” That’s at least how I remember Michael phrasing it at a speech at the American Enterprise Institute about a decade ago (Ledeen is one of the most entertaining public speakers I’ve ever heard, by the way).”<br><br><a href="http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTFhZGQ4Y2IyZmNlY2QyNDkwZTlkZjFkYjZiNWY0YzU=" rel="nofollow">http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTFhZGQ4Y2IyZmNlY2QyNDkwZTlkZjFkYjZiNWY0YzU=</a><br><br>Hmm… so Liberals want to tax the rich and that’s fascist? Goldberg wants to enact a foreign policy of sadism and that’s–what?–freedom?<br><br>You are a shameless hack.cokanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-63017800015479356552007-12-25T03:10:00.000-05:002007-12-25T03:10:00.000-05:00Sock PupptesI wonder if all the people here praisi...<b>Sock Pupptes<br><br>I wonder if all the people here praising Goldberg for his excellent historical analysis are just sock puppets of the doughy pantload himself.<br><br>There is nothing here to prevent people from using an assumed name to praise him so I assume all praise is coming directly is coming directly from the blubber butt momma boy himself.</b>MonkeyBoynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-64345975213531407252007-12-24T21:24:00.000-05:002007-12-24T21:24:00.000-05:00I haven’t read the book, but a few obvious respons...I haven’t read the book, but a few obvious responses to Katherine, who also, apparently, hasn’t read the book or the review:<br><br>“Hitler was a vegetarian . . ” etc.<br><br>I am betting that Goldberg actually argues that Hitler liked a controlled economy, government involvement in health care, industrial policy, and well, every other policy, therefore he was, by current American definitions, a liberal.<br><br>“Over the past eight years Republicans . . .” <br><br>Did you read the review? Read the part again where the wartime actions of WIlson and FDR are dicsussed.<br><br>“I have yet to see any evidence of liberals invading countries . . .”<br><br>Let’s see, Did Cuba present a threat to us when Kenndy invaded? Were the Serbs a threat when Clinton attacked (without UN authorization-the horrors!!) Did North Korean threaten the US when Truman fought them? How about Vietnam. Started by Kennedy, escalated by Johnson, ended by . . .(drumroll) NIXON.hist_ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-58957817860396892922007-12-24T18:19:00.000-05:002007-12-24T18:19:00.000-05:00Ah, the typical responses to a reasoned examinatio...Ah, the typical responses to a reasoned examination of history and consequences. Ad hominem attacks, sexual innuendo, and, of course, the uncritical assumptions of the ‘new’ Left. “We can’t have that in our history, we must air-brush it out or throw it down the Memory Hole before it becomes public knowledge!”. Typical.<br><br>Congrats on a very good review, Mr. Seavey. You must have had some history with the Left, otherwise your attackers wouldn’t have been quite so unpleasant.Peter K.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-92187762227375199832007-12-24T17:30:00.000-05:002007-12-24T17:30:00.000-05:00How’s the girlfriend hunt going? Who knew that Cha...How’s the girlfriend hunt going? <br><br>Who knew that Charles Lindberg, Henry Ford, Randolph Hearst and Prescot Bush were all raging liberals?<br><br>“Fight Club may appeal most to the same demo that forms the eager youth cadres in all totalitarian movements.”<br><br>Obviously that includes you, but you are also apparently too stupid to even understand that you included yourself in that demographic.<br><br>And my god learn how to write.noennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-39726038535074297972007-12-24T15:59:00.000-05:002007-12-24T15:59:00.000-05:00Jonah Goldberg’s book in a nutshell: Hitler was a ...Jonah Goldberg’s book in a nutshell: Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore all vegetarians are Nazis. Hitler loved his dog, therefore all people who love dogs are Nazis. Hitler loved artichokes, therefore… According to Jonah, everyone is a little bit of a Nazi because they breathe air just like Hitler did. I have yet to see any evidence of liberals invading countries that are of no threat to the US, rounding up “undesireables” and interning them in concentration camps and exterminating them en masse. <br><br>Over the past eight years Republicans have achieved a torture bill permitting torture, flouting the Geneva conventions, murder (Abu Ghraib), arrests without warrant, secret prisons, and one invasion of a country that posed no verifiable threat to the United States (something Bush himself has admitted). <br><br>You may want to have a gander at these reviews before you embarrass yourself any further:<br><br><a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8301.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8301.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8280.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8280.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8274.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8274.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8263.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8263.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8245.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8245.html</a>Katherinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-7445329439482435442007-12-24T15:41:00.000-05:002007-12-24T15:41:00.000-05:00Dood. I’ve read the book, too. If you think this i...Dood. I’ve read the book, too. If you think this is serious scholarship, there’s a reason you’re not in academia.<br><br>All Jonah does is assert something contrary to reality, then cite a source based on reality, which contradicts his claim. Or he cites the Pink Swaztika, which is not credible.<br><br>Argument by assertion is not effective, except at fooling fellow wingnut welfare queens like you, and the five people who’ll actually buy this book.bradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-80344283293649999892007-12-24T15:04:00.000-05:002007-12-24T15:04:00.000-05:00“dog-lovers = Fascist”Haha. Maybe you should ask C...<em>“dog-lovers = Fascist”</em><br><br>Haha. Maybe you should ask Comso about that.Stevennoreply@blogger.com