tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post1803208953956327906..comments2024-03-28T07:08:58.221-04:00Comments on Todd Seavey: Immigration Revolution, Immigration BlogTodd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-27677861548638348502010-07-13T21:07:00.000-04:002010-07-13T21:07:00.000-04:00No. You’re not defining these terms the same way ...No. You’re not defining these terms the same way I am, and precisely in the difference lies the confusion and your resultant ability to liken it to mere cultural prefernces. And I don’t think this dialogue is going to get more coherent quickly or easily, so let’s leave it there.Todd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-85274311719788492052010-07-13T20:51:00.000-04:002010-07-13T20:51:00.000-04:00“With strict property rights, there is, by definit...“With strict property rights, there is, by definition and immediately, no government and thus no borders . . .”. <br><br>That’s a bit of a stretch. Property owners could conceivably enter into a contractual arrangement with a government, granting that government some limited right of access to private land for the purpose of enforcing laws. I don’t think that’s likely, but since it’s conceivable I don’t think strict property rights “by definition” means no government. <br><br>Don’t get me wrong – I think strict property rights will most /likely/ lead to no government and thus no borders. I hope also hope that’s true. But that’s just my preference. By saying that my preferred outcome of no government/no borders is part of libertarianism, aren’t I doing the same thing that Kerry Howley does when she asserts that feminism (her particular preference) is part of libertarianism?Noah Siegelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-5846550130764058772010-07-13T20:22:00.000-04:002010-07-13T20:22:00.000-04:00With strict property rights, there is, by definiti...With strict property rights, there is, by definition and immediately, no government and thus no borders, which is completely unlike the extrapolations about long-term cultural effects you seem to be suggesting. I do not see any analogy between the different things you’re referring to.Todd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-33388856648487300592010-07-13T19:39:00.000-04:002010-07-13T19:39:00.000-04:00Thank you for the response. I agree that the path ...Thank you for the response. I agree that the path you describe from property to rights to the end of government is pretty standard anarcho-capitalist thinking, especially as described by David D. Friedman. I would also agree that it is a desirable outcome. <br><br>I have a harder time seeing, though, how it fits into the narrow view if libertarianism you have (if I understand your past writing correctly) advocated. Doesn’t it involve some conjecture about where strict property rights will lead? The same sort of conjecture you would get from someone who says (for a wild example) strict property rights > no government > no reinforcement of patriarchal institutions > no gender roles? I had thought that this sort of conjecture about non-property related outcomes was what you wanted to avoid in libertarianism.Noah Siegelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-26163639942512404982010-07-13T19:25:00.000-04:002010-07-13T19:25:00.000-04:00Strict property rights > no government > no ...Strict property rights > no government > no nation state > no borders. <br><br>Pretty standard anarcho-capitalist libertarian thinking, at least prior to the increased prominence of Ron Paul and immigration-related tensions in the past few years.Todd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-12735053969890263022010-07-13T19:21:00.000-04:002010-07-13T19:21:00.000-04:00My Dear Seavey:Does support for “open borders — or...My Dear Seavey:<br><br>Does support for “open borders — or no borders at all” fall outside of libertarianism, if libertarianism’s only proper concern is the protection of property interests? <br><br>Perhaps you consider “freedom to sell my labor/buy land/ travel to anywhere I want” to be a property interest. (Though most American courts would call it a “liberty interest.”) But I still don’t see how a post-nationalist worldview fits into what I understand to be the fairly narrow Seavey definition of libertarianism.Noah Siegelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-52862373231792915072010-07-13T16:47:00.000-04:002010-07-13T16:47:00.000-04:00Oh, the NEW Facebook page. As in, it didn’t exist ...Oh, the NEW Facebook page. As in, it didn’t exist before. I get it.Gerardhttp://unreceivedwisdom.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-27564517872798486152010-07-13T16:46:00.000-04:002010-07-13T16:46:00.000-04:00Interesting. I didn’t even realize there was an ol...Interesting. I didn’t even realize there was an old Facebook page for Debates at Lolita Bar.Gerardhttp://unreceivedwisdom.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-62374756056289800652010-07-13T16:34:00.000-04:002010-07-13T16:34:00.000-04:00P.S. And when you see the new Debates at Lolita Ba...P.S. And when you see the new Debates at Lolita Bar page on Facebook, you’ll realize the magnitude of his recent duties. Watch for it!Todd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-56472833328605509662010-07-13T16:33:00.000-04:002010-07-13T16:33:00.000-04:00The Brain, our able webmaster, is _always_ on vaca...The Brain, our able webmaster, is _always_ on vacation, which makes him less obsessive about checking his e-mail than your average high-powered stock-trading floor type. But best to contact him privately instead of via this forum.Todd Seaveyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08589187886030112999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-3865870288849906082010-07-13T16:19:00.000-04:002010-07-13T16:19:00.000-04:00Thanks for the plug, Todd. It’s very much apprecia...Thanks for the plug, Todd. It’s very much appreciated. <br><br>I do have a question though. Is The Brain on vacation? I haven’t been able to contact him recently.Gerardhttp://unreceivedwisdom.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-610803938756668468.post-63706171341448615452010-07-13T14:14:00.000-04:002010-07-13T14:14:00.000-04:00“Maybe Spain winning the World Cup will decrease c...“Maybe Spain winning the World Cup will decrease condescending attitudes toward our Spanish-speaking brethren in this hemisphere a bit.”<br><br>???Christophernoreply@blogger.com